MBF Motorcycle Forums banner
1 - 20 of 31 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
55 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
has any body tried one of these system? patrick racing or thunder mfg both make kits trying to find out if they are really worth the cost and if they really do anything? can you here a lot of intake noise when cruising down the highway? are they pretty easy to install? thanks Burt ps do you need a power commander or something else to add fuel or can you just bolt them on. Burt
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
19 Posts
little burt said:
has any body tried one of these system? patrick racing or thunder mfg both make kits trying to find out if they are really worth the cost and if they really do anything? can you here a lot of intake noise when cruising down the highway? are they pretty easy to install? thanks Burt ps do you need a power commander or something else to add fuel or can you just bolt them on. Burt
I am looking thru threads as I go and don't know, but, while talking about this subject at my bike shop, I have been told that with say the Thunder Mfg stacks, to expect a sustantial loss in fuel mileage, for the added performance. I have been told as much as a 20mpg loss! I know I have seen pics of mods, just need to find the threads/posts from the owners.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
90 Posts
I just recently installed the Thunder Air Kit with PCIII and Cobra Dragsters and have not lost any mileage at all and it appears I have actually gained a few mpg. By the way, adding the air kit was a major seat of the pants power boost!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
155 Posts
I did the airbox lid mod, only I drilled 12 - 1/2" holes in the lid and added the K&N filter. When I did the mod, I also added Cobra Slashdowns and FI2000. There was an increase in throttle responce and HP. I can't give any numbers, but had a little more "pep". I did the mod as a temporary fix to get a little more air in. My gas milage has been 40 to 45 MPG depending on highway or around town driving.
Some time down the rode I planned on putting in a BAK. This was depending on other products coming out for the Raider like: http://www.dmcustomcycle.com/index.php
These aren't available yet. I know they have been installed on a couple Raiders out there, but just for looks. Mortons has been working on something, it should be on there site in a couple weeks. Has anybody installed Mortons BAK? Any comments or concerns?

Thanks

Brian
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,178 Posts
Mortons kit is very much along the lines of the Thunder and Patrick kits in form (2 K&N pods). Regarding function however, I know that it was test fit, but so far no info on Dyno testing for performance gains.

Being that the Patrick, Thunder and Mortons kits are all w/in $20 of each other, I'd recommend the two former until they can release some performance figures.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,178 Posts
DesertRaider's point about NinjaMatics airbox mod is important to note when it comes to intake performance.

Like he pointed out, the injector throttle bodies are directly under the stock panel filter, and installing pods like the Patrick & Thunder kits does not necessarily offer any benefits over the airbox mod. The airbox mod in question still installs a high-flow K&N filter over the throttle bodies, and provides more air by drilling the airbox cover.

If the panel filter installed has the same surface area as the two pods, you're providing the same amount of filtered air to the intake system.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
123 Posts
little burt said:
has any body tried one of these system? patrick racing or thunder mfg both make kits trying to find out if they are really worth the cost and if they really do anything? can you here a lot of intake noise when cruising down the highway? are they pretty easy to install? thanks Burt ps do you need a power commander or something else to add fuel or can you just bolt them on. Burt
The Warrior guys use and speak highly of the Churchkey VBAK system:

http://rswarrior.com/forums/p/51921/703555.aspx#703555

He doesn't make it for the Raider yet, but if we showed enough interest he may consider it.

Cheers, Scooter
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,570 Posts
NJRaider said:
DesertRaider's point about NinjaMatics airbox mod is important to note when it comes to intake performance.

Like he pointed out, the injector throttle bodies are directly under the stock panel filter, and installing pods like the Patrick & Thunder kits does not necessarily offer any benefits over the airbox mod. The airbox mod in question still installs a high-flow K&N filter over the throttle bodies, and provides more air by drilling the airbox cover.

If the panel filter installed has the same surface area as the two pods, you're providing the same amount of filtered air to the intake system.
Amen NJ,even if it was worth a big HP gain why can't you buy the filters from K&N and save half the cost.Some folks will buy anything if its called a kit.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
258 Posts
NJRaider said:
DesertRaider's point about NinjaMatics airbox mod is important to note when it comes to intake performance.

Like he pointed out, the injector throttle bodies are directly under the stock panel filter, and installing pods like the Patrick & Thunder kits does not necessarily offer any benefits over the airbox mod. The airbox mod in question still installs a high-flow K&N filter over the throttle bodies, and provides more air by drilling the airbox cover.

If the panel filter installed has the same surface area as the two pods, you're providing the same amount of filtered air to the intake system.
This is an interesting comparison, I'll do some measuring and get back to ya......I'm bettin the PR K&N filters have more surface area than stock airbox filter, not to mention the V-stacks that were designed, machined, and tested to be power enhancements.
I trust Nigel when he says he can make power with something....remember, this is no Joe Smoe that put this "kit" together in his shed out back. My .02
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
530 Posts
Well looks like the only way to settle this is for patrick racing or thunder mfg to test it out. But I know that won't happen so until I see a comparison (sure it will have to be done by a few of us) between a kit and the mod I will go with the mod. Just makes sense to me but then again I am no expert on the subject. If the surface area of the kit is bigger than the stock box with a K&N then I would have to see some numbers that will justify a $250 price difference.

Would be nice to have a dedicated thread where guys post dyno results and what set up they have. But ya know you have to post a copy of the actual sheet otherwise we will have an exaggeration factor that will make the thread useless.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,178 Posts
NHRAIDER said:
Would be nice to have a dedicated thread where guys post dyno results and what set up they have. But ya know you have to post a copy of the actual sheet otherwise we will have an exaggeration factor that will make the thread useless.
Even better, taking into consideration that threads scroll pretty quickly, I'll set up a page on RaiderPerformance.com for Dyno Charts, comparing different mods.

Like Rob said, we HAVE to see the actual sheet, but if you've had your bike tested, let us know what mods you have and it will let us compare. Doesn't just have to be intakes. If you've just replaced the pipes, lets post that. Pipes and a PCIII, that too....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
258 Posts
NHRAIDER said:
Well looks like the only way to settle this is for patrick racing or thunder mfg to test it out. But I know that won't happen so until I see a comparison (sure it will have to be done by a few of us) between a kit and the mod I will go with the mod. Just makes sense to me but then again I am no expert on the subject. If the surface area of the kit is bigger than the stock box with a K&N then I would have to see some numbers that will justify a $250 price difference.

Would be nice to have a dedicated thread where guys post dyno results and what set up they have. But ya know you have to post a copy of the actual sheet otherwise we will have an exaggeration factor that will make the thread useless.
Uhhh, that's how Patrick Racing does things, make something, test it, re-make it, and test it again until they get the desired results. I'm sure if you ask them, they would be more than happy to give you some sort of proof. It's like their business or something.......
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
530 Posts
boatwrench1 said:
Uhhh, that's how Patrick Racing does things, make something, test it, re-make it, and test it again until they get the desired results. I'm sure if you ask them, they would be more than happy to give you some sort of proof. It's like their business or something.......
Yeah maybe but I would like to see something that shows it is a huge improvement over the air box mod. Something that would justify the cost. I am sure if I ask them they can explain away but really I need to see the #'s. They may tell me the gains over a stock raider but I doubt they will know the gains over the mod, if any.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
258 Posts
OK, the stock airbox filter has a total filter area of 17.5 sq in. Now even with the top removed completely, (which will also make the air flow differently) it will still only flow 17.5 sq in. (Referred to as effective filter area / EFA)
By the numbers this engine from the factory design, requires an EFA of at least 24 sq in. Choked down, right?
Now the PR kit has an EFA of 38.5 sq in for each throttle body. (77 sq in total) Yes more than needed, but EFA is a minimum requirement for any kind of performance. I'm sure Patrick Racing had all this in mind when designing their product. Just a bunch of old hot rod formula's. It all should line up on paper before it is proven on a dyno, which I'm sure it will.....my.02
Not a salesman for 'em, just makes good hotrod sense.:)
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,178 Posts
Certainly can't argue with those kinda numbers - appreciate you doing the math...

Makes seeing the Dyno graphs even more interesting, as well as vital to the discussion.

Leads me to another question - EFA takes into consideration the size of the filter. How about the filter material? i.e. K&N vs. stock paper, etc...?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
220 Posts
boatwrench1 said:
OK, the stock airbox filter has a total filter area of 17.5 sq in. Now even with the top removed completely, (which will also make the air flow differently) it will still only flow 17.5 sq in. (Referred to as effective filter area / EFA)
By the numbers this engine from the factory design, requires an EFA of at least 24 sq in. Choked down, right?
Now the PR kit has an EFA of 38.5 sq in for each throttle body. (77 sq in total) Yes more than needed, but EFA is a minimum requirement for any kind of performance. I'm sure Patrick Racing had all this in mind when designing their product. Just a bunch of old hot rod formula's. It all should line up on paper before it is proven on a dyno, which I'm sure it will.....my.02
Not a salesman for 'em, just makes good hotrod sense.:)
I was told by a few techs that you won't get much more out of a BAK - sure - but they said between 1-2 HP.

You also have to consider the direction the air flows as well as the size. Having a completely exposed conical shape attached to the throttle bodies means the air meets in the center of the filter - after it has passed through - the air needs to go somewhere and is constantly fighting itself as it is sucked down through the center of the TB.

A flat filter doesn't have the same effect - air just passes straight through it and into the TB without the same restrictions.

Either or - I took the cheaper route because 2 more horsies isn't worth the extra 200 bucks from a "kit".

All in all - surface area != CFM - which is what matters most.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
530 Posts
Ninja-Matic said:
boatwrench1 said:
OK, the stock airbox filter has a total filter area of 17.5 sq in. Now even with the top removed completely, (which will also make the air flow differently) it will still only flow 17.5 sq in. (Referred to as effective filter area / EFA)
By the numbers this engine from the factory design, requires an EFA of at least 24 sq in. Choked down, right?
Now the PR kit has an EFA of 38.5 sq in for each throttle body. (77 sq in total) Yes more than needed, but EFA is a minimum requirement for any kind of performance. I'm sure Patrick Racing had all this in mind when designing their product. Just a bunch of old hot rod formula's. It all should line up on paper before it is proven on a dyno, which I'm sure it will.....my.02
Not a salesman for 'em, just makes good hotrod sense.:)
I was told by a few techs that you won't get much more out of a BAK - sure - but they said between 1-2 HP.

You also have to consider the direction the air flows as well as the size. Having a completely exposed conical shape attached to the throttle bodies means the air meets in the center of the filter - after it has passed through - the air needs to go somewhere and is constantly fighting itself as it is sucked down through the center of the TB.

A flat filter doesn't have the same effect - air just passes straight through it and into the TB without the same restrictions.

Either or - I took the cheaper route because 2 more horsies isn't worth the extra 200 bucks from a "kit".

All in all - surface area != CFM - which is what matters most.

Yeah good points Ninja, I guess thats what I was poorly attempting to say. I am sure the techs at Patrick racing are smart great guys but don't forget they are salesmen also. If it was like a 5+ hp gain over the cheap mod I would do it but if it's under 5 like I suspect it's not worth it right now for me.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,570 Posts
You cant just measure the filter plate,you have to take both filters appart and count the pleats and depth of the pleats. On every K&N I have done this to the K&N had almost half the pleats of the stock filter. Plus the fact that the K&N dont filter worth a dam Ill keep the stock filter. On the Busa and the ZX14 K&Ns were shown to cut HP slightly.After running a K&N on anything for a while take it off and run your finger around the inside of the throttle bodys and feel the grit..No thanks. :-\ :-\ :-\
 
1 - 20 of 31 Posts
Top