Do I have to install a Power Commander...

[NJRaider]

...or other aftermarket Fuel Injection Controller when I install aftermarket pipes?

Experience from a lot of Raider owners has shown that the Raider's stock ECU is quite flexible and will accomodate many aftermarket pipes without the addition of an FI controller.
More extensive mods to the engine, especially those that cause higher air-flow, i.e. High-flow intakes, usually require that addition of a controller.
Certain pipes, especially straight through designs without baffles of any kind (i.e. Morton's), flow so much exhaust gas as to cause a lean condition, which requires a module as well.

[Pappy]

I have a set of Cobra Dragsters and I purchased a FI2000 fuel processor to go with it. I have yet to find the correct pot settings (I have kept the baffolds in). The factory settings work ok but I still get afterburn popping when I wind the gears out. Has anybody installed the same processor? If so, do you have any recommendations for the pot settings?
Thanks,
Pappy

[gman]

I don't have the Raider in my garage yet. I bought it and it is sitting in a crate at the dealer, so next week. I owned a Warrior which was a nice bike too. Anyway from my reading forums and my experience with my Warrior I would recomend the PCIII for reduction of the popping. While I never got rid of the backfire completely it was greatly diminshed. I believe the PCIII is the only fuel management that can remove fuel from the mix and the popping is coming from to much fuel during decel.

[tomb raider]

so far the fi2000r with the speedster slashdowns and the stock air cleaner seems to be set about right on the stock settings.
I got one pop while shifting from first to second from a stop, and minimal to no backfiring after that.
maybe its just me,but the whole power curve seems much smoother and stronger( as if this bike needed any help)
Its hands down the fastest bike I've ever ridden

[TRaider_John]

Popping is caused by a momentary rich mixture. The Fi2000 and similar fuel management systems cannot affect that because they can only add fuel to what the stock system is already doing, they cannot cut it. A Power Commander completely replaces the stock system and can be mapped to cut the fuel resulting in a leaner mixture on deceleration lower likelihood of popping.

[wilcon]

TRaider is 100% correct. I have found however that using nothing with my pipes has been perfect. No popping on decel and smooth sailing.

[gman]

Here is a cut and paste from the V&H Fuel Pak site about adding and removing fuel from the mix.

Unlike other fuel management systems that can only add fuel, Fuelpak adds and takes away fuel, allowing for a more precise range of refinement in your air/fuel ratio.

Here is the link; http://www.fuelpakfi.com/metric1.html

[diablo]

hi guys, just brought my new raider home yesterday ! Had the dealer install cobra swept pipes. and did experience popping on decl. So if I understand correctly I should purchase a PCIII and problem solved..

Is this somthing I can install or should dealer or one of my wrench buds handle?

btw, nice to be here ,Ive been trolling for a week now and have picked up some great info aswell as some aftermarket goodies!!

Diablo :cheers:

[MYWORLD]

:welcome: diablo!! Nice purchase by the way.:tour: You can learn a ton here alot of smart guys here!!

[diablo]

TRaider is 100% correct. I have found however that using nothing with my pipes has been perfect. No popping on decel and smooth sailing.

can u clarify nothing, i have nothing and still get poping

[Rip]

Ok, now that I am some what confused on this topic.... I have an '09 red Raider S (the fastest and the best handling color by the way :wink:) with Cobra Speedster Swept pipes. I get some poping on decel and a little black smoke when I rev it up. I am looking at installing the Fi2000R. Looking at the Cobra web site they say this is suppose to fix these issues but, from reading some of the posts I am not sure. Can anyone set me on the right path here?

Thanks

[gman]

If I were in your shoes I would probably get the Cobra Fuel Manager. The reason would be the Cobra pipes you have. You could get the PCIII or PCV. I decided to get the V&H FuelPak since I already had the V&H 2 into 1 exhaust.

[PRPLPILL]

Ok, now that I am some what confused on this topic.... I have an '09 red Raider S (the fastest and the best handling color by the way :wink:) with Cobra Speedster Swept pipes. I get some poping on decel and a little black smoke when I rev it up. I am looking at installing the Fi2000R. Looking at the Cobra web site they say this is suppose to fix these issues but, from reading some of the posts I am not sure. Can anyone set me on the right path here?

Thanks

Rip,

If I understand this issue correctly, what is being stated is that a fuel manager "SHOULD" and "WILL" help. I installed the V&H br 2-1's without the manager and have had 3-4 load "pop's" on hard decell, nothing major.

"Some" poping, from what I have read and experienced, seems to be normal , even with stock exhaust, although you may not hear it due to the "cats".

The stock ECU can handle minor changes like pipes, but not major changes like air. NJ is correct on this issue.

If you are looking for "ZERO" popping, get a manager. However, depending on the manager of choice, you might run into other expenses such as dyno time to tuning the manager. Personally, I am looking at the PC-V and auto tune, due to it's simplicity.

As far as the "BLACK" smoke that you mention, is that with or without the new pipes? My read on this is that you are running "RICH", and adding the pipes should have helped this. If it is "WITH" the pipes, you are still rich, and a manager is going to be required to eleveate this problem.

Good luck in your endevers,

PILL

[Rip]

Thanks guys :bowdown:. I am going to go ahead and install the Cobra Fi2000R. It should help some with the poping (oh, to answer your question Pill, the smoke happens with the new pipes) and, I believe, the performance. Either way, I don't think it will hurt.

Thanks again,
Rip

[TRaider_John]

I assume by your initial statement that you have decided you want or need a fuel management system. If you have not gotten to that point, stop reading now. Only you should make that decision and it should be made based on your desire to try to get the best performance from your bike. There is no need to try to justify it by fuel mileage or anything else, the numbers don’t work.

Then, trash any idea that because a fuel management system has the same brand name on it as your exhaust system that it is a better system than another for you. If that were true, everything on your bike would be Yamaha. (By the way, the OEM system is built by Mitsubishi).

Now do some research and you’ll find that there are basically two kinds of after-market fuel management systems. I’ll call them type A and type B.

A systems are those like Cobra and Dobeck. These systems work in tandem with the OEM systems to ADD FUEL to the fuel map where you tell it to add it. You can think of these systems as adding adjustable jets to your fuel injection system. You can’t make the baseline air-fuel ratio any leaner than the stock system allows, but you can make it richer by adjusting the screws. Except in this case, the screws are “pots”. The mfg will give you suggested initial pot settings but you are free to tweak on them to your heart’s desire to wring the most out of your mill

B systems like Dynojet, V&H,… essentially replace the EOM fuel management with a system of their own. This system controls fuel to the engine based on a digital “map” of throttle position and rpm. The map can be adjusted to ADD or CUT fuel (as compared to the stock EFI control) under certain circumstances. In the case of the latest offers from Dynojet, the device is mapped using a computer connected to the device by USB. In the case of V&H, it is through buttons and indicators on the device. The mfg will give you the first map based on whatever data it has for your configuration of engine, air, and exhaust . You can take it from there (at your own risk and cost of dyno time) if you want to tune it more finely. Dynojet has released the Autotune circuit for the PC-V that will constantly measure and adjust the A/F ration for all operating conditions to optimize performance. This is the same process idea used on some sophisticated race machines that monitor and tune each cylinder’s performance.

Type A units are great for those bikes with mods that lean out the A/F ratio and the riders who want screwdriver adjustment (like tuning a carb). They are the low-cost option compared to Type B.

Type B units are the only option for me because based on my dyno runs I needed to CUT fuel across the entire power band (Raider, K&N, Cobra Swept). Rapid shift, self-tuning, and even traction control (Bazzaz) is available – at extra co$t, of course. The downside is that remapping is not nearly as easy as turning a pot.

Make your choice based on your need, your desire, your understanding of the system and desire to tweak, availability for your bike, and your credit card balance. There are no guarantees that it will eliminate everything undesirable, but there is a better chance with one than without.

And, yes, new pipes will smoke a bit. It is the lubricants and presevatives burning off. I doesn't last long.

[Rip]

Thanks for the post. It explains a lot (and I need all the explain’n I can get). My main concern is what’s best for the bike. I would like to get the best mileage and performance I can reasonably get but, the reason I am looking into this is to make sure it is well taken care of. You hear that it runs hotter without it, which I’m sure is not the best thing for it, that it is not as fuel efficient…. But, like I said, my main concern is to take care of my ride the best I can.

I will do some more research now that I have a better understanding and see what my wallet and my limited mechanical knowledge can handle.


Thanks for all the info,
Rip

:cheers:

[TRaider_John]

Check your stock configuration after a few miles. It is a big air-cooled V-twin and it will appear to be hot. Your physical senses are not tuned to determine if it is hotter after the mods.

Conventional wisdom says that the bike will run hotter (leaner) than before modification. That wisdom is based on decades of experience with carbed engines. When you let a carbed engine breathe better without changing the jetting, it would naturally go lean (more air, same fuel).

That is not not the case with today's closed loop EFI systems. When the EFI's O2 sensor sees excess air in the exhaust, it throw more fuel into the mix to try to the air/fuel mixture back to what was mapped for it. In my case the engine was actually running rich.

[busajack]

John, all the systems you described go between the ecu and the injectors to modify the fuel signal. The Tune Boy from Australia actually changes the ecu outputs so that the O2 sensor is not telling the ECU one thing and the pcv or lll has to change the data. CK it out and see if you can wrap your mind around the tune boy..These guys are to lazy to read about it. :thumbup2::thumbup2::cheers:

[TRaider_John]

Too cool!! Talk about a custom map! Even ignition can be customized. What a toy if you have the time to figure it out. What an investment that would be to wring every ft-lb out each of the 56.5 cids. Can you imagine that in the hands of somebody that doesn't know the difference between an ECU and and EFI. auto what?

You think Dynojet has a system to get your money. Tuneboy is unreal!

How did you learn about that. I'm guessing it has something to do with "busa".

[PRPLPILL]

john, all the systems you described go between the ecu and the injectors to modify the fuel signal. The tune boy from australia actually changes the ecu outputs so that the o2 sensor is not telling the ecu one thing and the pcv or lll has to change the data. Ck it out and see if you can wrap your mind around the tune boy..these guys are to lazy to read about it. :thumbup2::thumbup2::cheers:

busa,

did a search on tune boy, found nothing. Would you please give me directions to the site?

Pill

[JohnnyFig]

busa,

did a search on tune boy, found nothing. Would you please give me directions to the site?

Pill

Here is the link that I found for tuneboy. I don't see anything for the Raider on the site though.
http://www.tuneboy.com.au/

[PRPLPILL]

Thanks johnny,

pill

[TRaider_John]

Busa, I may have to retract some of my enthusiasm. It was based on a couple of the forums I got into. I may be missing something you can explain to me, but how is Tuneboy different from a PC-V. They both map the ECU for a specified A/F ratio across the band. the tutorials read just like the directions for the PC-V. they both have add-ons to fine-tune the performance. I'm not seeing much difference overall. What am I missing?

[shucker]

I personally installed the Cobra Swepts on my 08 Raider S. I then installed the Cobra fuel module and everything appears to be running fine. I did notice a little drop in my fuel economy, but I don't ride motor bikes for fuel economy. The power is still there and I notice no popping or black smoke coming from the exhaust. Just thought I would add my two cents. My experience on bikes is about the same as my wife's on owning horses, everybody has their own opinion. You can ask a thousand horse owners the same question and you will get a thousand differant responses. I find the same is true for the "steel" horse owners as well. Do what works for you.

[Rip]

I went ahead and bit the bullet and purchased the PC-V with the Autotune (still waiting on it to come in). You can research, look, read, ask for advice...but, no matter what you will end up having to make up your own mind on which direction to take. My thinking is that the PC-V will certianly do what I want it to do and more I'm sure. With the Autotune I should also be able to make changes to the air, pipes or whatever and it should adjust to the mods without the expense of dyno time.

Just another opinion.

:cheers:

[brainsalad]

I installed a Powercommander III with the LCD screen and love it. Along with the tach, the screen gives me real time information on the fuel compensation and throttle position. I have four maps I use and with the LCD screen, I can change the maps on the fly. I have a zero map, the DynoJet map for my configuration, my personal Dyno'd map, and a map that I use when cruising on a trip. Because of the real time information, I take my perfomance map and cut the fuel boost in the 2500-3200 rpm with a 5-15% throttle position. This bumps my fuel consumption from 38 up to around 45 when cruising. With this map I can accelerate out of either the rpm or throttle position ranges and I have the mapping for performance. With the PC III and V you can also add a number of performance enhancing devices. A friend of mine has the throttle linkage so you can shift up or down without using the clutch. Its using in racing. When the shifter moves it causes the PC to cut fuel until the shifter moves back to it's resting position.

[2fast]

There is some good reading here for you guys. The only correction I want to make is that the Power Commander does not replace the stock system. It only lengthens and shortens injector pulses based on your settings from what the ECU sends it.

It does still use the stock base map from the ECU. You might see a zero map on the map database, using that (or just putting all your values in the graph to zero) will be exactly the same as not having the unit installed.
Also be sure to use the Dynojet O2 sensor eliminator or your ECU/O2 sensor and power commander will be arguing with eachother giving you incorrect settings.

[TRaider_John]

There is some good reading here for you guys. The only correction I want to make is that the Power Commander does not replace the stock system. It only lengthens and shortens injector pulses based on your settings from what the ECU sends it.

It does still use the stock base map from the ECU. You might see a zero map on the map database, using that (or just putting all your values in the graph to zero) will be exactly the same as not having the unit installed.
Also be sure to use the Dynojet O2 sensor eliminator or your ECU/O2 sensor and power commander will be arguing with eachother giving you incorrect settings.

absolutely correct. A critiical misspeak on my part.

[RedStar Raider]

No!:roflblack:

[JudgementDay]

My bike came with the PC-V and a 2 into 1 Vance & Hines exhaust. I went to PC's website and they have no map for i so I am using the roadburner setup. I think I did it correctly. I had my laptop and imported (at least I think I did) the map for it. I am guessing by importing it is I click on the map while the bike is connected and running? Performance seemed to be ok with a couple pops here and there. I only ran it up to 4th gear (since I was in somewhat of a residential area) and didn't wind it out. Anyone know how to do any other settings with this setup or explanation of doing so?

[pa113]

power commander has a map for V&H 2 into 1, here is the link

http://www.powercommander.com/powercommander/powercommander_v.aspx?mk=15&mdl=200&yr=2009